Comments on Three Jews, Four Opinions: Three Challenges to the TMH / DH Project

I've seen the reference to the computer study....

2010-11-10T15:03:14.171-08:00

I've seen the reference to the computer study. Its from the 1980s. A computer just analyzes data --- so the results depend on what the criteria are.

The people arguing against the DH (and for it, for that matter) usually don't take an everything-is-a-mirage approach. They tend to be robust realist who believe in a specific set of events that led to the writing of the Torah.

Bruce- Steve's point three isn't exactly a...

2010-11-10T15:03:13.776-08:00

Bruce- Steve's point three isn't exactly a separate issue at all. For much of the problems presented by the DH theory, it is precisely the OT that offers a potential rebuttal. Whether these rebuttals are good ones, of course, are a separate issue. But to a large extent the OT is responsive to a large amount of the issues posed by the DH.

Suppose that we found a man who has been alive sin...

2010-11-10T15:03:13.056-08:00

Suppose that we found a man who has been alive since the giving of the Torah and he said G-d spoke to the Jewish people and gave the entire Torah and oral Torah (like mel brooks) and everything he said was proven to be true? What would happen to everyone else in the world who didn't follow the entire Torah?

Probably the same thing as in your hypothetical. The big time believers in their own faith would deny it to be true despite all the obvious evidence because they cannot give up on their deep rooted (but now proven wrong) view point.

But much like Atheist's hypothetical...it will never happen (except after mishiach)

There is no doubt in my mind that if tomorrow we f...

2010-11-10T15:03:12.675-08:00

There is no doubt in my mind that if tomorrow we found separate J, P, E, and D manuscripts dating back to Ezra's time, the Orthodox attrition rate would barely change.

Steve raises three important points that I certain...

2010-11-10T15:03:12.294-08:00

Steve raises three important points that I certainly will keep in mind in future posts, and I hope others do as well. Although I tend to think these points are less significant than Steve does, they certainly are worth keeping in mind. Some specific responses.

1. Steve's first point is that the TMH / DH is not central for most Jews. That's true, simply because (as Steve also notes) most Jews are sufficiently comfortable with their own Jewish beliefs and practices that they are not looking to analyze the other side in great depth.

But the debate is central to some people.

For example, there is a large movement of baal tshuvah Jews who were convinced to become Orthodox by arguments for TMH and by not being convinced of (or not understanding) the DH. Of course, many BTs become more observant for other reasons as well. But for some, this debate, or the lack thereof, is crucial.

Also, some Orthodox Jews become convinced the other way and leave Orthodoxy, either in thought or in practice: they find the arguments for DH compelling and the arguments for TMH unconvincing. (Many of the regular commentators here fall in that category.) And some Orthodox Jews entertain doubts about TMH, but are not convinced by the arguments they have heard or read. If the arguments on both sides could me made clearer, these Jews might feel more comfortable with a decision either to leave or stay.

Steve also notes an asymmetry between these two theories. I agree. But among TMH advocates, some people are simply willing to accept this claim based on faith, while others try to "prove" TMH. The argument here lies only with the latter. The benefit of such a rigorous approach is that it possesses the power to convince others; the detriment is that it can at least in theory be refuted or undermined.

In short, I think this issue is central and foundational. TMH is the traditional Jewish belief, and the DH is a modern challenge to this belief. How one decides this issue determines what sort of Judaism one practices. The fact that many people never examine this complex issue in any depth does not make it any less foundational.